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01/08/2007

Belgium, twelve points

Il y a deux semaines, nous fêtions notre pays la Belgique. Comme départ, on ne pouvait espérer mieux. Le titre, lui, venait d'ailleurs, d'un ailleurs plus musical "J'aime la vie" mais qui pourrait bien résumer l'esprit belge.

4133d78bce82b97170b3836c4bfeafab.jpgJe parlais de "commande" en voici le lien de l'article et le commentaire  qui le demandait

« Belgique: toujours pas de gouvernement ».

Dialogue:


La question était: « Pourquoi, plus un État est petit en taille, plus il court et recherche sa division. Par le plurilinguisme, la décentralisation et le fédéralisme exacerbé (communauté Wallonne, Flamande, Bruxelloise, Germanique)? »

Ma réponse: « Réel paradoxe. Ces particularismes se retrouvent d'ailleurs souvent ailleurs (Corses, Basques, Irlande du Nord, Kurdes...). Il y a une grande différence entre les mots "pays" (territoire d'un état") et "nation" (communauté humaine qui possède une unité historique pour former un peuple). L’un étant coupé à la hache politiquement, l’autre créé par les habitudes et la vie terre à terre des gens. "Nous sommes tous des coproducteurs de nos perceptions" comme disait un sociologue »

Question: « Si on peut comprendre le fédéralisme américain, et l’autonomie des gouverneurs (vu l’énormité du territoire et de la population), pourquoi, en Europe, l’infiniment petit, au lieu de se regrouper pour peser plus -comme cela se fait en économie pour les entreprises-, recherche au contraire la division et la complexité ? Pour "faire comme les grands ?" Pour "faire sérieux" ? »

Ma réponse: « Les entreprises multinationales, en premiers, ont compris l'avantage d'une Europe unie, d'un monde uni. Elles se jouent des frontières. Pourquoi? Silence...finances...on tourne. La finance aurait-elle ses raisons que la politique ne connaît pas? Retard d'une guerre? Peut-être. Mais la politique, ceux d’en bas, n’ont pas ressenti les effets sociaux bénéfiques qui étaient avancés pour allécher les acteurs. Le particularisme est visé aujourd'hui. On regarde dans son assiette et plus dans la soupière. "La Libre Belgique" écrivait aussi "La fin de la Belgique, une fiction?" après le coup d'éclat de la RTBF de décembre. Pourtant, nous vivons un ensemble d’attaques venant d’ailleurs. Je ne préciserai pas, mais tout le monde a compris. Alors travailler dans la miniature, ça ne va (mal)heureusement plus. David contre Goliath, c’est une légende pour faire rêver. Il faudra s'y faire ou disparaître.  »

Le décor est planté.

16590abcd6c0750a7d81a67791fb4e54.jpgQuant au tempo, comment trouver meilleur moment pour parler d'un pays que lors de sa fête nationale, qui a eu lieu ce 21 juillet? En point d'orgue, on l'avait annoncée avec la pluie, la drache nationale, comme on dit chez nous. Ce fut tout le contraire. Présage? Un monde de centaines de milliers de personnes était au rendez-vous et apparemment contents d'y être.

La Belgique reste encore une énigme pour pas mal de Français et pas mal d'autres d'ailleurs qui sont venus nous voir à domicile pour se rendre compte sur pièce de la manière « bizarre » de nous comporter en diverses communautés complètement différentes de conception.

Avant d'être Belgique, le territoire a été le couloir de passage et d'invasion de pas mal de peuples d'Europe et d'ailleurs. Ce qui a constitué une richesse incontestable malgré elle. On le reconnaît maintenant. Ce sang mêlé peut se découvrir dans les noms des habitants et à certains mots restés dans le langage de la rue. L'ouverture vers l'extérieur existe peut-être plus qu'ailleurs.

Plus proche, trois langues officielles et plus encore par l'intégration de l'Union Européenne et de l'immigration plus lointaine encore. L'une, nordiste, le flamand, dialecte du néerlandais aux consonances germaniques, l'autre, sudiste et francophone, enfin, "francophone", wallonophone, teinté de dialectes wallons et une dernière, qui pratique la langue germanique à fond de pinceau. Au milieu, Bruxelles qui se les mélange ces pinceaux de toutes origines.

Après les dernières élections de juin 2007, nous sommes donc en pleine négociation pour la constitution d'un nouveau gouvernement. En affaires courantes, en période de crise, diraient certains.

3600481898cb81ca872fab1321b5546b.jpgLe Fédéralisme qui se chercherait une nouvelle étape vers une ségrégation plus effective. Les nerfs sont à vif relatés par la presse pour faire mousser une situation qui s'éternise à leurs yeux. Chaque jour, un accord précède ou suit un désaccord.

Des dossiers restent ouverts depuis longtemps et font mal. BHV, réformes de l'Etat.1c8635783cf3a2032671992f525925a6.jpg.. Nous avons déjà 5 réformes enregistrées. BHV est un symbole. C'est peut-être un peu plus quand on se penche sur le but. Celui-ci est de renforcer le caractère flamand de la périphérie de Bruxelles et de bétonner la frontière linguistique pour une éventuelle future scission.

Le population veut que l'on adresse ses problèmes socio-économiques et financiers. Une réforme définitive de plus tant que l'on ne touche pas à l'essentiel national: la défense, les affaires étrangères, la sécurité, la justice. Re-dessiner les contours de Bruxelles opposé dans une légitimité d'une capitale qui se veut à la dimension de la réalité, en échange. Les calculs ont été fait. Si la Belgique disparaissait, cela coûterait, dans un premier temps, au Wallon 1000 euros par an et par habitants et 200 pour le Bruxellois. Dettes qui s'adouciraient au fur et à mesure. L'image de marque "Made in Belgium" serait le plus préjudiciable.

La régionalisation a généré 7 assemblées parlementaires, 6 gouvernements, 10 provinces, 3 régions, 3 communautés, 589 communes, voilà la Belgique politique pour seulement 32 545 kilomètres carré et moins de 10,5 millions d'habitants. Partagée en nationalisme flamand, régionalisme wallon et « belgitude » bruxelloise. Bruxelles (161 km2), Washington en devenir, toujours meilleur atout pour tous au milieu du jeu de quilles. Véritable échafaudage institutionnel qui n'est évidemment pas gratuit. Cela fait du monde au balcon et dans les tribunes...et dur, dur, d'être Belge?

Le suffrage universel obligatoire à la proportionnelle ne donne pas les mêmes chances de clôturer la formation d'un gouvernement aussi rapidement qu'en France. Deux tiers des votes sont nécessaires pour adresser les problèmes cruciaux.

5471911c38f91df391350d83bb9b4e93.jpgCette fois encore, informateur, modérateur, formateurs (Yves Leterme), réconciliateurs se succèderont à la table des négociations.

Alors, on s'installe dans la discussion dans le meilleur cadre possible, d'abord, le prieuré de Val-Duchesse, à l'orée de la Forêt de Soignes. "On travaille pour réussir", dit-on... On compte surtout les points en relation avec les programmes et les promesses devant l'électorat.

Sera-ce "Belgium, twelve points"? Le suspense continue.

4403433a86e0adf17db861874c83cc6e.jpgLa gaffe du futur premier ministre, formateur, qui chantait la Marseillaise au lieu de la l'hymne de la Belgique, la Brabançonne, n'est qu'une des péripéties, piège banal d'un journaliste pour les uns,  énormité inadmissible pour les autres.

Il faut bien le dire, les paroles de cette Brabançonne ont évolué de nombreuses fois dans l'histoire depuis celle de Jenneval. Le côté révolutionnaire des débuts était totalement obsolète. Des mots comme « esclavage » par exemple n'avaient plus de sens aujourd'hui. Des alexandrins de début qui se sont mués en vers à dix pieds, rendent la chanson difficile. L'air, lui n'a pas changé. Entonner un « la-la-la » ajusté aurait donc été plus judicieux ou une présentation humoristique sous forme d'Alzheimer notoire. Résultat, une nouvelle méfiance vis-à-vis d'une possible communion bien digérée.

Le confédéralisme sans séparatisme est le but avoué du côté Nord. Comme corollaire, se marier, oui, mais sans bague au doigt de mariage... et quelques casseroles derrière le cortège des voitures. Comment devenir confédéralistes, sans devenir des concurrents purs et dures, tout à la fois?  Réflexions citoyennes différentes ici...

Cette fois, croisée des chemins qui précède un grand tournant? Serait-ce « Te veel is te veel » ou « Trop, c'est trop » ? Les francophones non demandeurs de changements.

2d868218e574acc0733319c41a915364.jpgJe prends à dessin le site de la Flandres on line d'aujourd'hui pour présenter la situation. Le site est en grande ligne vrai en substance mais évidemment dirigé vers des idées politiciennes de l'actualité plus flamandes de conception qu'à la recherche d'une Belgique unifiée.

Les télévisions du Nord et du Sud n'ont reçu que récemment une incitation à parler avec un langage commun et un partage d'informations.

Le discours du Roi de Noël 2007 se voulait encore plus intégrateur et rassembleur que d'habitude, pas nécessairement comme le disait un des commentateur français pour tenir sa place, mais aussi dans d'autres buts plus importants. Soulagé, inquiet et ... ambigu.

Le Roi règne mais ne gouverne pas. Sans pouvoir réel sinon de conseil avec rôle de signataire des lois votées par le gouvernement. Le devoir de réserve n'est pas un vain mot et son successeur en a fait les frais.

aeedaa010c42eaf06f2b2c8680e6cf2c.jpgNotre image de marque belge n'est pas vraiment à rechercher dans Wallonie ou Flanders Expos. La petitesse de ce pays ne justifie pas plus de ségrégation. Une séparation de fait ne se marie pas avec les réalités du terrain et de l'Europe en formation.

Bruxelles, en plus de capitale de la Belgique, est la capitale de l'Europe. Elle a été adoptée sans aucun référendum comme capitale de la Flandre. Personne n'en aurait cure et pourtant. Bruxelles, entourée de la Communauté flamande, ne vit pas à l'heure flamande mais avec un fort pourcentage de sa population d'expression française. Elle n'appartient pas plus à la Wallonie, d'ailleurs. Elle est une entité séparée à part entière. Géographiquement, la ville fait désordre. De plus, les autochtones ont été depuis longtemps accompagnés d'allochtones de toutes origines de l'Europe. On pourrait dire que c'est la ville européenne par excellence. Donc, faux problème? Pas de problèmes insurmontables à la suite d'une immigration de toutes formes. La Communauté Européenne a attiré de nouvelles langues et un melting pot s'impose naturellement avec de l'organisation. Métonymie de l'Europe, ce Bruxelles d'aujourd'hui.

La détermination à réaliser l'union dans la diversité se retrouve dans le pourcentage de seulement 13% de nos concitoyens qui expriment parfois bruyamment que la séparation est la solution à tous les maux du pays. Des preuves partisanes inverses font partie du concert.

Le 13 décembre 2006, coup de théâtre, voilà le faux Journal Télévisé qui fait annonce de manière très vraisemblable la séparation de la Belgique et de la prise du pouvoir dans le Nord du pays. Cette élection sentait le souffre après cela et après une ruade de la justice qui forçait de trouver une solution pour le problème BHV (Bruxelles, Halle, Vilvoorde). L'« Onde de choc » de la RTBF a été totale et diversement appréciée. La constitution réglée à la proportionnelle et non pas avec une vue à moitié-moitié comme commence à l'imaginer la France.

Cela prend du temps pour créer un gouvernement à chaque fois (1988:148 jours), surtout que les problèmes litigieux sont généralement repoussés pour l'occasion d'après élections. Mais cela n'a jamais empêché à créer la coalition qui se greffe le mieux possible avec les résultats d'élections. En 1930, pas moins de 6 formateurs se sont succédés.

c3ae577f4aeddb43895ee25beacab305.jpgFaut pas rêver: les problèmes sont de taille. Bizarrement, ils pourraient d'ailleurs être complémentaires.

Des clichés au niveau emploi entre Nord et Sud existent. Le chômage des jeunes pourrait très bien trouver preneur dans le Nord. L'inverse est vrai pour les travailleurs plus âgé dans le Nord qui pourraient faire valoir leur expérience dans le Sud. Le vieillissement des Flamands plus important sera à financer. Des échanges donc, pour résoudre les problèmes d'emplois? L'Écho du 4/10/2006 remarquait déjà le phénomène et titrait "Quand les employeurs se regroupent pour partager les salariés".  La sécurité sociale a été conçue pour la solidarité, pas pour l'aparté.

L'histoire particulière est très riche d'enseignement.

380f805249e6d3641d73dcc2bd5e17d3.jpgPlus d'autonomies pour arranger les choses? Un fédéralisme coopératif?

La situation actuelle est particulière. Les dernières élections ont amené l'idée d'une coalition Orange Bleue mais avec des acteurs qui n'ont pas les mêmes buts de chaque côté de la frontière linguistique et cela même dans un même parti centriste. Du temps et encore du temps est nécessaire.

Le "Vif L’Express" se posait la question « Et, si Leterme «échouait? ». La personnalité du futur premier ministre qui a récolté du côté flamand 800.000 voix de préférence ne correspondrait pas à ce que le pays pourrait attendre d'un homme rassembleur. Un mépris des journalistes, une absence de compromis, un manque d'humour, cassant, un esprit brouillon sont les reproches principaux. b4e0614da4f324d546ec51402e9fa028.jpgLes phrases assassines contre les francophones accusés d'incapacité d'apprendre la seconde langue. Pourtant, mi flamand, mi wallon, comment aurait-on pu espérer meilleur candidat médiateur et conciliateur bien belge? Une carrure au dessus de la mêlée, alors?

L'erreur d'orientation scolaire en manque de billinguisme est avancée. Le coût de l'hypothétique séparation voulue par certains n'a intentionnellement pas été évalué à sa juste hauteur. La Belgique n'est pas la Tchécoslovaque. Il suffit de regarder une carte pour s'en convaincre. La Tchéquie à Prague. La Slovaquie à Bratislava.

Le 'grand" partage de la dette publique par exemple ne serait pas de la petite bière vu son imbrication. Une nouvelle blague belge, probablement? Belgique, triangle des Bermudes?

Quand, on n'aime pas les histoires belges, cela pourrait être un chant du cygne. Quand la Flandre arrive avant tout autre chose avec un CD&V accoquiné au N-VA séparatiste, il y a problème. Situation explosive et  crise de personnalité ou de départ.

8297565986a03ae794d765ce1619d364.jpgMême, le budget a passé la rampe de l'accord malgré l'équilibre rompu sans précédent depuis quelques années (déficit de 0,2%).

Le journal l'Echo lançait en août lancer "Il n'existe pas d'Etat confédéral" inscrit dans le programme de la Flandre (selon Hugues Dumont, professeur en droit constitutionnel à Saint-Louis).  Une confédération est une association d'Etats qui restent indépendants et souverains tout en gérant ensemble un certain nombre de matières avec pour guide un traité international et non pas une constitution. Ce qui veut dire que ce qui est préconisé en Flandre n'est pas réalisable juridiquement. Même la Suisse n'est plus une confédération depuis le XIXème siècle. Ses cantons n'ont pas de souveraineté. C'est un État fédéral à part entière. L'Allemagne l'était avant Bismarck. Les États-Unis au début de son existence.

Politiquement, la volonté flamande est de créer un État avec des compétences résiduelles reviennent aux Régions et aux Communautés avec une autonomie fiscale et aussi une ré-écriture de la Constitution belge. Retour vers deux grands blocs avec Bruxelles et la Communauté germanophone sous tutelle, réduite d'autant dans ses marges de manoeuvre. En résumé, un État fédéral qui ne sonnerait plus que comme une coquille vide. Bruxelles produit 19% des richesses du pays avec seulement 9,7% de Bruxellois de souche. Le PIB évolue 2 fois plus vite qu'ailleurs.

Autre proposition sortie du chapeau "Fédération de coopérations". Les finances au secours du communautaire.

123f064d9f6c4165a7a2b770535ebebf.jpgLa politique, c'est comme la guerre. La paix suit toujours et on continuera à gouverner coûte que coûte avec le « Parler Belge », ce compromis, cette spécificité très particulière. Artistes, scientifiques, sportifs ont choisi avec modestie et autodérision salvatrice. Les drapeaux qui flottent aux balcons à Bruxelles. Pour se parler, si cela ne marche pas autrement, il y a toujours l'anglais ou une autre passe-muraille.

Vous avez raison, Français, nous sommes difficiles à cerner... (La preuve ici.). Un peu sadomasochiste, superréaliste, style Magritte, les Belges.

Alors, vite un demi ou une Chimay Bleue, mon frère, « mijn broer » car, on a si soif, « we hebben zo dorst ». Le plat pays de Brel n'est plus une morne plaine depuis longtemps.

Julius Caesar disait de nous: « Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae ».

Que l'on pourrait traduire en extrapolant par l'"Union fait la force".

Tiens, c'est justement notre devise !

 

L'enfoiré,

 

Site intéressant en provenance du Québec sur l'origine des langues parlées en Belgique.

"Le divorce avec la Flandre, entre utopie et réalisme"

 

Citations: 

  • « Plus vieux est le bouc, plus dure est sa corne. », Proverbe belge
  • « Que celui qui n'est pas content de son voisin recule sa maison. », Proverbe belge
  • « Les anges ne croient au diable que quand ils ont reçu un coup de cornes. », Proverbe belge

PS. Mes remerciements à Kroll et les autres caricaturistes du Soir et de l'Echo.

Et la voix du peuple d'ici et d'ailleurs, sur Agoravox, qu'est-ce qu'on en dit?

Pétition pour une Belgique unie

"La Flandre a déclaré la guerre à la Belgique"

 

Des images de la fête nationale pour remonter le moral, non peut-être?

 

Des bouquins qui parlent de la situation actuelle:

 

« Incurable mal Belge » de Jules Gheude

« Belgique, où vas-tu? » de Pierre-Yves Monette

« La vie est belge » de Jan Bucquoy iconoclaste, subversif qui voit « La paradis, là maintenant et tout de suite »

« L'Espace Wallonie-Bruxelles. Voyage au bout de la Belgique » de Benoit Bayenet

"La spectaculaire histoire des rois des Belges", Patrick Roegiers

 

Suites du "thriller de l'été et de l'automne", la version belge du "Torchon brûle" :

"Les flammes de la loque à reloqueter"

7 août: "On s'approche de la crise"

8 août: "Une nouvelle note du formateur"

9 août: En mal d'organisation

10 août: La question et chassé-croisé

14 aoùt: "V'là un sphynx en sus" et qui ne fait pas d'ombre. Faudra que le soleil soit très haut pour cela.

16-août: "La réponse de la bergère au berger"

17-août": "Les parfums de la Duchesse sont ils sèches, archi-sèche"

18-août": "Ouf : Nous sommes arrivés à la case... de départ. Au rapport... au roi" "Quand la musique est bonne...." Quand la réforme "waterzooï" et le "lapin n'est plus qu'aux pruneaux avec mise en bière?

21-août: "Restons très schématique"

22-août: "Heureusement, il y a les copains, et les copains des copains " et ça c'est bien

23-août: "Je sens que j'ai la pêche. Flute c'est de l'orange bleue que je dois me farcir"

24-août: "Après la pêche et l'orange-bleue, voilà la banane"

26-août: "Inquiétude chez les artistes"

28-août: "Duo dino non admis" alors on cherche

29 août:  "Le sphynx revient en explorateur "

31 août: Echo "Scission de la Belgique: tout le monde serait perdant." Pour la Flandre, la fin des transferts Nord-Sud ne compenseraient pas le contrecoup économique.

Le Vif L'Express: site les risques d'une scission, par le transfert de compétences:

  • Le casse tête de la dette,
  • La concurrence fiscale entre région
  • La Sécurité Sociale avec 15 à 20% de majoration des budgets
  • Les salaires a deux vitesses
  • Les transports désorientés

1 octobre: On presse l'orange bleue

4 octobre: Relance Bilaterale en quadrature du cercle

21 octobre: Les accords tombent, les fronts aussi. mais on pense à la paix

26 octobre: voilà que nous sommes à vendre pour la deuxième fois.

3 novembre: Des états d'âme commence à sortir dans la lassitude

5 novembre: "Modification dans le guiness book belge" 148 qui dit mieux

6 novembre: Indigestion

7 novembre: "Etat d'urgence" vote unilatéral et ça fait crack boom hue

8 novembre: "La Belgique a la gueule de bois" cordon sanitaire et fédéralisme d'union: poubelle

9 novembre: "Les réconciliateurs en selle?"

12 novembre: "Encephalogramme plat"

14 novembre: "Deux réconciliateurs vallent mieux qu'un seul".

15 novembre: "Le réconciliateur déconsilié" et on ajoute un peu d'huile sur la démo cratie

16 novembre: "Guerre de tranchées ou de retranchés?"

18 novembre: "Bruxelles se rassemble"

27 novembre: "Du rififi à la cours Nouvelle Voulonté Admise"

28 novembre: "Des idées venant d'ailleurs" et pendant cela on parle de crochets

29 novembre: "Sans jus, cette orange?"

30 novembre: une video de notre amuseur Pirette explique l'inexpliquable avec l'humour en plus

1 décembre: "On risque le tout pour le tout, une fois?"   et résultat on jette l'éponge l'Orange Bleue n'a plus de jus

2 décembre: "Le clash bissé" alors on cherche l'homme qui a vu l'ours. Qui?

3 décembre: "On pense aux anciens" et à dépanneur de luxe

8 décembre: "On renie ce qu'on a poussé"

10 décembre: "Et une gaffe, une..."

13 décembre: "Des solutions proposées en chat". ? (3ème) (4ème) (6ème)

18 décembre: François Pirette remet cela (depuis le 30 nov) alors que le gouvernement intermimaire proposé par Verhofstadt a du mal

19 décembre: 192 jours de crise et le Père Noël sans barbe et à lunette apporte un gouvernement, une fois

15 janvier: La pieuvre est partie, ouverture des 8 partis. Attention JY Cousteau est à bord.

25 janvier: "L'octopus est en rang d'oignon ou vice versa"

4 février: "On cherche un parallèle ailleurs"

29-février: Après une première vague de réforme avant celle de juillet, on réfléchit

18 mars: Il est né le divine enfant "Leterme I" est là. Bravo, mais si c'était dans la douleur

19 mars: 'Le Terne 1er"

20 mars: "Les dix années d'avant" résumées par des politologues et celles d'après

35d12ddd142fafbe8ed688229d36a115.jpg

Belge Side Story musique connue, paroles un peu corrigées.

La crise vue au travers des caricatures de Kroll

Mais que dit-il de lui, ce Kroll ?

 

 

et ceux de RIF de l'Echo:

 

 

0d68a37e227cbdf6ddc2df3426861149.jpg

Commentaires

Cher Monsieur,


J’ai bien reçu votre courrier du 28 juillet dernier et je vous en remercie.

C’est avec grand intérêt que j’ai pris connaissance de votre commentaire relatif à la situation politique et à la négociation en cours.

Je vous remercie tout particulièrement pour vos encouragements qui me vont droit au cœur.

Restant à votre disposition, je vous prie d’agréer, cher Monsieur, l’expression de mes sentiments les meilleurs.

Joëlle MILQUET

Écrit par : Joelle Milquet | 05/08/2007

Qu'ils sont longs tes articles, l'Enfoiré !!!
Pffff t'as vraiment toujours autant de choses à dire, hein? Ou plutôt à écrire ! Un vrai moulin-à-mots, mais pas à vent..car tes mots ne sont pas des paroles en l'ai ou à courant d'air, mais des aires de mots, où courent au gré du temps et au gré du ton...de belles et bonnes réflexion !
je n'ai pas toujours quelque choses à dire ou à écrire, mon intellect ne me le permet pas à chaque fois ou est-ce ma culture limitée qui me fait défaut ? Bref, je suis souvent abasourdie voir interloquée, par tant de culture et d'intérêts pour un aussi grand nombre de sujet...et je l'avoue, je n'arrive pas toujours à être à la hauteur, car dépassée...!
Alors humblement, je vais te répondre par ceci :

La Suisse doit être un peu Belge sur les bords ou le contraire...je ne sais pas ! La seule différence , on a pas de roi...enfin je devrais dire on en a plus car...dans mon canton de Neuchâtel, nous avions choisi ( nous avons eu le choix, à l'époque) et pas par hasard, un suzerain, le roi de Prusse...et celui-ci était tellement éloigné géographiquement, qu'on avait la paix royale...jusqu'en 1848 ! Après, évidemment les choses ont changé...nous avons eu notre révolution et.....
Sinon ben nous sommes des incompris aussi et en plus nous vivons entre-incompris avec des manies bizarres...des langues et des patois bizarres...!
Alors, d'une certaine manière, Belgium twelve points...? C'est un peu l'Eurovision, non ?
A Bientôt...

Écrit par : Miss Canthus | 06/08/2007

First of all I have to tell you that the popular support for an independent Flanders now has reached a level of 45.8% of the Flemings.

And secondly, in the UN-charter is written that any people has a right to gouvern itself. Now, in general this means that a people decides among themselves whether they want to belong to a nation or not. So, no matter how mush bullshit you write, your opinion has no importance at all, concerning the topic of Flemish seperation.

Isn't this good news? :)))

Écrit par : Dirk | 27/09/2007

No I don t think so
And I have a lot of good reasons fort that.

Écrit par : L'enfoiré | 27/09/2007

Well, you're obviously not a Fleming. Because for Flanders, it's the best news in decades. :)))

By the way, the latest poll held by het nieuwsblad, speaks of 46.1% of the Flemings, supporting Flemish independence. While only 49.3% support Belgium. The support for Belgium is at an ever-low and, fortunatelly, is shrinking every day. I want to thank your politicians for their attitude, because, without that, we never had such results. As you can learn, if you read the political survey in Flanders, that's been held after every election in Flanders, you see a surge from 30% of the Flemings who want an indeppendent Flanders to 46%, as is now the case. So, the longer the coalition talks fail, the more support we get.

The demands that we are making at the coalition talks, are supported by 90% of our population. So, this shows two very obvious Frencophonian propaganda-lies. 1. As you see, for our population the institutionals demands are really important and not, like you've always read, just an invention of our politicians. On Flemish side, 60% of our population voted for confederalistic or seperatistic political parties. 2. Even the majority of Belgians want institutional reforms, because 90% of the Flemings + 8% of the Frencophones are more people than 10% of the Flemings + 92% of the Frencophones.

This is the last chance for Belgium and your politicians (Who didn't solve one bit about the economical mess* you're in, during the last 40 years. Take a look at Ireland: 30 years ago they had an average income of 80, when you take the average income of the EU as 100, and now they have an average income of 126, the highest in the EU. So, don't be mad at us that we don't want to live with you anymore, blame it on your completely useless and incompetent politicians who only excell in corruption.) are so friendly to screw it up. Talking about incapable politicians. :)))

If you followed what's taken place in Flanders, you should know that there is no way for the CD&V to back down, or they lose the support of the NVA. Now, should that happen, the CD&V will lose it's position of power in Flanders. Just because the NVA will separate from the CD&V and will form with LDD and VB a new political organisation, the Forza Flandria, and they will become very easily the biggest political force in Flanders (as you know: 46% of Flanders supports the independence of Flanders). Then, your politicians will have to deal with them, during the next coalition-talks.

So, your people thought it would be nice to live in a socialistic paradise (40% of your work-force works the state), but they made a mistake by expecting that another people would pick up the bill for their choice. According to me, it is your right to choose the society that you want to live in, but if your wishes are so unrealistic, you get to pay for them, yourself.

Finally, there comes an end to the Belgian non-policy on every field. It has cost us tremendous much (over the past 10 years we lost 20% of our markets, soly because we couldn't take the measures that were necessary because of your stupid veto's). I really don't mind that your only ambition is to become the first region of West-Europe that produces even less than Albania, but Flanders is sick and tired of paying for your nonsens. During the last 30 years, you've had tremendous sums from us and the EU. Now, what's changed? Right: nothing at all.

* And, you're in an economical mess. Last year, figures from the EU, showed that you stood on the 57th place, concerning economical production, of all the regions in the EU. I have to congratulate your politicians with this new record. Now, in reality, this means that, when you drive to the south, you have to travel to the region of Napels, before you encounter a region that manages to peforms equally bad. In the north, there is no region that performs as bad as yours. In the west, there is no region that performs as bad as yours. And, in the east, you have to travel further than Warsaw, before you encounter a region that does equally bad. Let's hear a cheer for your politians! For them, all is alright. After all, they drick champagne and eat kaviar. :)))

You begin to understand why the course towards independence is the best course for Flanders to follow? Anyway, it is culturally logical. Because of what we've endured by the Frecophones, because of their delibirate effort to commit cultural genocide against the Flemish culture, Flanders has always been anti-Belgium. Just look at our situation now, and compare it with a hundred years ago. Now, to what do you think that this basic attitude will lead on the long term, other than independence?

So, no matter how many reasons you have to keep Belgium united, Flanders will decide on its own which course to follow. And, I bet that it won't be a united Belgium that we choose for, because that idea has no support whatsoever in Flanders.

Écrit par : Dirk | 27/09/2007

Yes, I'm a full "zinneke van Brussel".
That's completely different than to be wallon or fleming.
I know a little more about the way of living together and not only encountering both lenguages in the "rue Neuve".
I'm feeling completely different and I know the advantages of being working together with a lot different people coming from all over the world.
The polling is not a reason for a good understanding of what would happen if Belgium would disappear.
The "made in Belgium" mention is a brand image that will not be replaced so easely by "Flanders Expo" or "Wallonie for ever" or what else.
I'm very drastic. The politic without economy is bulshit and those who are thinking that splitting things is better are making only the nest for the politician.
What would change and happen after the split? That's the question and not a dream way of life.
If you have read my article "Belgium, twelve points" from the beginning (it was in french, sorry for that) you have seen that the question and the misunderstanding of a person in France was: "Why smallest countries are always thinking and searching of being splitted by any artefacts as federalism, decentralisation, linguistical differences?"
I was diffcult to give a good answer. I'm always looking at the history to get an answer.
The biggest error in my opinion is not saying from the departure that Belgium has 2 or 3 mandatory languages.
Education, the listening of others and laziness of people have always been in the original mistakes.
Who will pay the debt of Belgium?
What will be Brussels? Not at all flemish, not at all wallon.
Forget Brussels as capital if you are in the North of the country. It will not be happening any more.
Brussels is to be enlarged like other capitals (London, Paris) especialy to keep the place of European capital and it will also happen.
Look at my vision of a near future "La Belle gicle".
You are contributing like all other people at the same rate to the prosperity of a country.
I'm proud to hear that Belgian people and mind are well exported all over the world.
Tha's why I'm thinking that to take another direction is dangerous and not profitable to the people of the street but only a small part of them.
Yes, the federalism has cost a lot. The duplication of the country management is not the best way to make economies.
The confederalism, still existing nowhere in the world, has the same disadventage.
Living in a building with a sole management, merging the responsibilities is always giving the best results.
I'm against the competition. If you are following what I'm writing, it's said.
But, unfortunately, we are in a complex world and the efficiency can only be maintained by power of two when invasions are coming from east.
I'm sure that you are aware about those mathematical reasons.

Belgium, a "economic mess"?
I have a lot of contact witrh French people and be sure that they were waiting a "messie" since a few years and that they are hoping sometimes to have expectations like ... belgian economical successes.
They are thinking they are democratic with their election way.
We are fully democratic with our election at the proportional way. They are not with 50 % of disatisfied people.
It's of course more difficult to find out how to compromise all ideas. Where is the problem for you? Everything is still working like before. No?
Our representants have to do it. They are payed for and have choiced to go in the game.

Wallonie is maybe in a rebuilding phase and that's needing time. They will do it like you did in the past in the North when the South had the biggest steel industries and that the North had to suffer calamities,

You see that we are in a "special" country. Visited for their specificities.
For all of that I like Belgium as is where everybody can give its opinion.

Écrit par : L'enfoiré | 27/09/2007

So, you live in Brussels. That certainly is your right. But, when you talk about Belgium, you talk about anything, except Belgium. You still dream of a country with unlimitted power of the Frencophones and the right to talk to the Belgian government is French, no matter where you are. And, this is most definitely not Belgium, where the principle of terrioriality is written in the constitution. We are forming even the majority of Belgians and nowhere I could read the least consideration with what the Flemish population wants or needs. And, this attitude makes of you a typical, imperialistic Frencophone. Because, believe it or not, our people are standing behind our politicians for 88% and 77% thinks that the state-reform is the most important topic of the next government. Not that you're willing to hold the democratical wishes of the Flemings into account. I'm sure that they applaud you in Brussels and Wallonia, but that doesn't impress anybody in Flanders. 46% of our population wishes to have nothing to do with you, whatsoever.

Meanwhile, you're even to blind to see reality. Brussels is dragging behind it 20% of unemployed people and the figures about Wallonia, that I gave you last time, are the real EUROSTAT-figures. Look them up yourself, if you dont believe me. Just as any Frencophone, you don't have the attitude to pose some questions, about the achievements of your own people, blinded as you are by thinking you're the greatest people that ever has walked this earth. For instance, the ease by which you say that Wallonia is reconcersing its economy and that it takes time to do so. Well, my friend, I have some news for you. A LOT of countries (all the east-European nations) and regions (the north of France, Liverpool, ...) had to reconverse their economy. And they all did so. Only in Wallonia, it's considered normal that it takes about 200 years. Well, my friend, the Flemings, which you're bleeding dry, have supported you already for 40 years and all those billions your people did already waste. Just like Flanders knows that they're good for 80% of the Belgian export.

A proof of your imperialistic way of thinking, is the ease by which you say that Brussels will be enlarged. The UN-charter states that any people has a right of an undisputed territory, but that means nothing to you. So you want to continue your perverse conquest of Flanders, by Frenchiphaction. And, like allways, you even don't care what Flemings think about seeing their territory shrink all the time. I mean, can you think of one reason why we want to live with you at our side? When we break up, we'll get definite borders, so that problem is solved.

And, what's worse of all, is your illusion that Belgium is good governed. The Belgian government is the worst and most expensive government of Europe, according to the World Economic Fund. If Belgium should be governed more or less decent, it could offer the same kind of care, but at a cost of -34%, according to the WEF. And, Belgium stands on the last place of all West-European countries, in the ranking of economic competiveness. It's also a fact that we have lost 20% of our markets abroad, over the last 10 years. Belgium stands on a third place in the world, regarding level of taxation, and despite this we have social benefits which equal those of Greece. If a worker can proove an active career of 40 years, he receives only 800 euro. And, we thank this all to you. Because your people likes to live in a socialistic paradise (where another people need to pay for), the Flemings haven't even the freedom to defend their economical intrests. (Ooh, no..! We're against neo-liberalism..! We're against any sollution..! We rather go bankrupt, before we implement the necessary changes in our society..!) Well, my friend, this may be news for you, but Flanders isn't planning to let your people drive them bankrupt.

Off course, you use the occasional lie, like any good Frencophone does. Belgium has lost the Freedom of Speach already a long time ago, and, as I remember correctly, your people was all for that. Just a matter of silencing some Flemings up. And, those Flemings are still lucky. Your people never saw any difficulties against killing all the earlier ones. After all, they're only Flemings and don't diserve to live. Now, the violent Belgian ways have become unpopular (= difficult to sell abroad), so we're only punished by robbing our Freedom of Speach. But, I'm sure that your people would prefer to shoot down all the supporters of the VB, just like Belgium has always done. In the same tradition of one of your glorified founders of this country, who said: 'It's imperative that French will be the only language, because we need to eliminate the Germanistic character of the Flemish population.'

You're right. You can learn a lot, if you look at history. For instance, who are your friends and who are not. Whenever Flemings look at the Belgian history, they see that the Frencophones are their mortal ennemies. You've been always very lucky that we don't believe in violence, because any other people would have turned to violence to free themselves from their mortal ennemy, already a long time ago.

But, you're right. On a ship, there's only one captain. On the ship Flanders, Flanders will be captain, because we intend to throw the useless Belgium overboard. Now, you can oppose that all that you want to, but you won't even get a vote in the matter. I mean, why would a Fleming hold your opnion into account? When all he sees are the blantantly anti-Flemish politics of Belgium? No, our people sees it right. Flanders should only look at itself, when it chooses its path into the future. We have lived together for more than 175 years. It's no more than logical that we don't want to have anything to do with your people, seeing the way your people acted and act, during the last 175 years.

Écrit par : dirk | 27/09/2007

To be blind seems to be common. You are reading only what is confirming your point of view.

The rest is also or even more important. Instead of swapping your words I'll answer point by point.

" when you talk about Belgium, you talk about anything, except Belgium"

>>> Are you sure? The dream is what you are expecting from your leaders, who are like other men, always be apparently on the right way from the beginning but are changing to respect their own advantages. That's human . To forget it is always the departure of misunderstandings.

"You still dream of a country with unlimited power of the Frencophones"



>>> Once more wrong reaction and misunderstanding of what I was telling. I'm not AT ALL a mono language and mono cultural voluntary. French is my mother language but I'm always ready to begin the discussion in Dutch or in English. It will only be less "straigth on". That's all. I'm fully open mind with all cultures and not only the Flemish one. In a near future, other languages will be necessary to get a job. Thus I'm quite different that the person that you are describing.

The history has demonstrated that the efficiency of people is due to the invasions or the integration of the people of elsewhere.

In the opposite of what was saying Leterme, everybody can learn and talk in any other language. It's a matter of motivation only and the way we are building our education at school. .



" our people are standing behind our politicians "



>>> It's always like this t the beginning when the dream is still present. The nightmare is sometimes in the next phase of the sleep when all points have to be paid to get it in place.



"Only in Wallonia, it's considered (rebuilding) normal that it takes about 200 years."



>>> How are you counting this? From 1830 to 1950 (thus 120 years) it was the South which was pushing Belgium. The North with only agriculture had the biggest difficulties to keep it right. The drop down of the steel companies, coal exploitation flop in the South (like also in Campine) have changed everything.

Are you thinking that your "Frenchiphaction" now replaced by a "Flemishphaction" will solve everything?



"can you think of one reason why we want to live with you at our side?"



>>> But my dear you are forced to lived and work with ALL the people around you. NOBODY can live in autarcy . Thus, to be more in the same board is giving a better chance to success. That's life and that's like this all biggest civilisation have been....



" your illusion that Belgium is good governed."



>>> That I agree. The biggest problems have come with the willing of federalism. A split of competences is costing a lot. Ministers and all governance behind it duplicating everything is not gratis AT ALL. Who was at the starting point of this view?

It's a nightmare and an enormous financial gap to have all those differences to be merged. A central government with all competences, I'm completely for it



" any other people would have turned to violence"



>>> In Voeren and Leuven, it was not really pacific. Isn't it?



" Frencophones are their mortal enemies"



>>> False. And I have good friends in both part of the country with my vision.



" It's no more than logical that we don't want to have anything to do with your people, seeing the way your people acted and act, during the last 175 years."



>>> But it's your people aswell. We have battle together to get our independence.



But let me take back the questions that you have intentionally not been answered.



"How will you split the debt of Belgium?"

"Are you ready to abandon all your prerogatives on Brussels? Brussels capital of Flanders : finito"

"How will solve the problem of the companies that have a foot in both part of the present Belgium?" The business men of both parties are not so happy to have to reconsider their accounts and to get differencies in the legislations. Business is something that everybody at the top or the bottom have to take care of.

Écrit par : L'enfoiré | 27/09/2007

You're partially right in your explanation of politicians. Those people are used to betray their own principals, when they have a seat in sight. But, nevertheless, there's progress noticable. When you look at the Flemish situation 100 years ago and now, you can't deny that we went forwards. Just like now. You know, the Flemish parlement has voted 5 decrees in 1999. Those decrees stated which competences needed to be regionalised and they're the basis for the Flemish negotiaters now. Off course, I know that we won't get all the demands, included in those decrees, realised now, but we will realise some of them. The days that Belgium could act as if they don't exist, are over. And, this is only today. What over 4 years? What over 8 years? What over 12 years? Believe it or not, but in the end we will have them all realised. Should your people refuse to negotiate over them - just like it did now - the answer will be Flemish independence. 1 out of 2 Flemings wants independence right now, so we have all the democratic support that we need. Even Elio Di Rupo has stated that it is 'inevitable' that Flanders, sooner or later, takes its independence.

So, this will be a government that seperates BHV and takes another step in our state-reforms, or there won't be a next Belgian government. Then, Flanders will become independent. I think that our politicians made that clear, by now. As I said earlier: they have the support of 88% of the Flemish population. Furthermore, the political situation in Flanders is perfect to make such a move. Thanks to the massive support for the VB (what makes the NVA really necessary for the CD&V), the CD&V-NVA-cartel becomes incontournable in Belgian politics. Now, before you make any illusions, the NVA is just as separatistic as the VB (pictures of young NVA-members burning the Belgian flag, have been circulating). And, the NVA offers the CD&V their much needed position in the Flemish-nationalistic debate. Did you already forget that the last elections were the 16th election-victory in a row since 1991, for our movement (progress these elections: at least five seats - but, probably more - in the Belgian parlement)? And, that Flanders has not one party anymore, that has Flemish independence in its political program, but three? So, there's no way that the CD&V is prepared to let the NVA go. Also that has been made clear, by the rejection of ECOLO. It's a pitty, in a way. Because, if the CD&V lets the NVA go, it's already overhere known what will happen. Should the CD&V drop the NVA, the VB, LDD and the NVA will form a new cartel, called Forzia Flandria. Undoubtedly, they will become the victors of the next Belgian election (they're already good for at least 32% of the votes, and the independence-movement has the support of one Fleming out of two; these are undeniable facts), and your people will have to deal with them, after the next Belgian election. So, as long as the VB remains status quo, as long as the CD&V really needs the NVA, as long as that cartel is incontournable in Belgian politics, you can expect more of the same. Believe me or not, but this state-reform won't be the last state-reform. Unless your people decides that it will be the last state-reform. If it does, Flanders will become independent.

Besides, there isn't anything that your people can do to stop the demands, made in those 5 decrees. Because, they're demands of the Flemish movement. And, as history proofs, the Flemish movement has realised ALL its demands over the years. (Look it up, if you don't believe me and tell me what demand the Flemish movement ever made that isn't realised, on the long run.) Mostly the Flemish movement makes a demand, some years before it is realised. But, in the end, Belgium ALLWAYS gives in. Because, it's the only way that Flanders can be persuaded to remain in Belgium. The only comparible time with now, is during the 30s, when Flanders voted also en masse for extreme right parties. Then, the vote was split between Verdinaso (lead by Joris van Severen, killed without a trial by Belgium, just because he wanted to federalize Belgium) and the more radical VNV (led by Staf De Clerck, killed by Belgium because he wanted Flemish independence), what weakened their grip on our society. Fortunately, the VB isn't intending on making the same mistake. Now, in the 30s Belgium gave in to a lot of demands, made by the Flemish movement, in the hope to appease the situation. And now, Belgium will give in to some demands, made by the Flemish movement, in the hope to appease the situation. If Belgium chooses this time not to give in to some demands, made by the Flemish movement, we will become independent. At least, according to our politicians. Because Flanders is a democracy, our politicians don't have the habbit of lying blatantly to their population. That might cost them their seat.

Now, also culturally, our attitude is easy to comprehend. In contrary to the Frencophones, Belgium has never done anything for Flanders, except the deliberate effort to cultural genocide. I gave you already a quote of one of the mother-fuckers who founded this godless country. Believe it or not, when you deliberate try to wipe out a culture, that leaves its traces in the people of that culture. So, therefor Flanders has the cultural habbit to resist Belgium. Allready for 200 hundred years, now. And this cultural habbit will never change. Just look at the Flemish history. Look from where we came. And, we haven't gotten all our rights at once, on the contrary. But, after a struggle of decades. That's why it's included in the Flemish culture to resist Belgium. That's an undeniable fact. Therefor, Flanders will allways resist Belgium. Flanders has allways and will allways strip Belgium from its competences, untill there is nothing left.

'The history has demonstrated that the efficiency of people is due to the invasions or the integration of the people of elsewhere', is another non-English sentence. I really can't make out what you mean. But, if I transulate it literally, you mean that you're all a supporter of people like Hitler, Stalin and scum like that. So, I guess that you mean something else. But, what is a complete mystery for me.
'In the opposite of what was saying Leterme, everybody can learn and talk in any other language. It's a matter of motivation only and the way we are building our education at school.' Well, I gues that's the reason why the Frencophones have a majority of 53% of their population, that only talks French. This figure was presented by the VRT-news, so it's also an undeniable fact.

'It's always like this t the beginning when the dream is still present. The nightmare is sometimes in the next phase of the sleep when all points have to be paid to get it in place.' Now, from there comes the desire to separate. Me too, I think that it's way to expensive to buy our freedom from your people (and that's what we're doing, now and in the past). And, that I'm not the only one who thinks that, is confirmed by the fact that 1 out of 2 Flemings wants our independence.

'How are you counting this? From 1830 to 1950 (thus 120 years) it was the South which was pushing Belgium. The North with only agriculture had the biggest difficulties to keep it right. The drop down of the steel companies, coal exploitation flop in the South (like also in Campine) have changed everything.' First of all, I meant those '200 years' ironically. But, now you mention it, I'm sorry, but I have a bit of information for you. A Flemish economy professor, specialised in historical economy and with no links whatsoever to the Flemish movement, took your claim and tested it to the economical truth. Now, he has prooven that in the 175 years Flanders never received any money from Belgium. On the contrary, even. Flanders has always paid for Belgium. To understand that, you have to look at the Belgian taxes. True, there was a time that you did better than Flanders economically, but Belgium has never taxed earnings out industry like it did with earning out of agriculture. The name of this professor is Juul Hannes, who works at the KUL. So, if you have any doubts or questions concerning his study, I suggest that you take them up with him personally. Alright, the Frencophones may have founded some factories in Flanders in your deliberate effort to wipe out our culture (it was obligatory to speak French in those factories), but that is a long time ago and now they're all bankrupt, except maybe one or two. The reality was different. In the 30s, when Gevaert and Bekaert (two founders of multinationals today) needed money to expand their factories, the Frencophone Banque Generale refused them any loan, because they promoted their workers to talk Dutch. In a fact, we have to be grateful for that Frencophone attitude, because they had to found their own Flemish bank, since Belgium refused to help them. That bank is now called the KBC (the second largest bank in East-Europe, the growth-market of the future) and this explains why the KBC has that many people with a Flemish-nationalistic ideology in its board (o.a. Remi Vermeiren is ex-KBC).

'Are you thinking that your "Frenchiphaction" now replaced by a "Flemishphaction" will solve everything?' Flanders has no desire to Flemishphy any other region than Flanders. We're not as imperialistic as your people. The only thing that we want, is to see the principle of territory respected, that is written in the Belgian consitution and was signed by your politicians. Suisse is also a country that works with the principle of territory, so I don't see the problem.

'But my dear you are forced to lived and work with ALL the people around you. NOBODY can live in autarcy . Thus, to be more in the same board is giving a better chance to success. That's life and that's like this all biggest civilisation have been....' Well, I'll rephrase my question for you: can you think of a reason why we should remain in Belgium? If I take a look around in Europe, I see that the overwhelming majority of the European states has a homogenuous character. Why would we waste time with a failed, multicultural experiment? We have an undeniable right on self-determintion, just like any European people has. And, it's also not our fault that two Italian proffessors of economy have prooved in their book 'The size of nations' that small, honogenuous countries benefit the most of economical globalisation. So, what is Flanders waiting for?

'>>> That I agree. The biggest problems have come with the willing of federalism. A split of competences is costing a lot. Ministers and all governance behind it duplicating everything is not gratis AT ALL. Who was at the starting point of this view?
It's a nightmare and an enormous financial gap to have all those differences to be merged. A central government with all competences, I'm completely for it.' Poor chap. It is not because Belgium has a federal structure that it is so poorly governed. Italy, Spain, the UK, Germany and the USA are structured in just the same way as Belgium. So, to link the federal structure of this country to its poor economical results, is hopelessly wrong. The only problem that we have, is that your politicians always veto our politicians, whenever they want to do something. That's the reason why we federalize as many competences as we can. Because, that way, we exclude your people from their right to veto our politicians all of the time. In Belgium, in regard of almost any policy, the Flemings want to do the opposite as the Frencophones. Because they veto each other, normal procedure is no policy at all. This kind of social immobilism (which is your people's answer to everything now already since decades) is the source of our problems and is very, very threatening to the existance of Belgium.

'>>> In Voeren and Leuven, it was not really pacific. Isn't it?' Flanders didn't kill any Belgians yet. Belgium killed thousands of Flemings.

'>>> False. And I have good friends in both part of the country with my vision.' In your dreams, my friend. And, seeing your total ignorance regarding Flemish politics, the Flemish society and the Flemish aspirations, I doubt that last part greatly. But, if you do, know that even in Flanders 7% of the people are dumb enough to vote GROEN! :)))
'>>> But it's your people also. We have battle together to get our independence against the Netherlands and France. You have to read a little more about our history.' I'm afraid that things didn't occur like you describe in your fairy-tale. Even Frencophone historians admit to that. As soon as the Belgium revolution broke out, Antwerp and Genth resisted this revolution fiercely. How do you think that the rest of Flanders thought about it? But, due to the stupidity of the Dutch king (who bombarded Antwerp a.o.) that resistance dissapeared. Betrayed by our own bougeoisie, who in those days spoke French, the Fleming people had to stare the Belgian nightmare in the eyes. Besides, Belgium was the last thing that was on the mind of those who revolted. They revolted for a right to re-attach to France (where we belonged to, during Napoleons time). But, the UK denied them that right (after all, Napoleons reign of terror was defeated only 15 years earlier). But, the UK had a compromise: Belgium. After the revolters agreed with that proposal, the sick bastards decided to be a mirror-image of France. The only disadvantage was that the majority of Belgians had a Germanic background. So, the Frencophones decided to commit a (failed) cultural genocide. This is how Belgium was born. If you don't believe me, you can ask it any Frencophone historian.

'"How will you split the debt of Belgium?"
"Are you ready to abandon all your prerogatives on Brussels? Brussels capital of Flanders : finito"
"How will solve the problem of the companies that have a foot in both part of the present Belgium?" The business men of both parties are not so happy to have to reconsider their accounts and to get differencies in the legislations. Business is something that everybody at the top or the bottom have to take care of.' Well, I leave the answer to your first question to our politicians. I'm not a professor of economy, so I don't know what's possible. But, there exist different scenario's for, in Flanders. I don't care about Brussels. I lived there one year, and can testify what a nightmare that city is, when you're a Fleming. But, probably we have enough power to prevent Brussels to join Wallonia, at least according to Frencophone analists. So, it could become an independent city, like Signapore, but a city with fixed borders. The last question, is easy. As you know, every compagnie has only one seat where the leaders of that compagny remain. Nowhere is written that you can't expand into another country, as would be the reality if we freed ourselves from your people.

So, this is it. I've read your unified fantasy over Belgium and what can I say? That it's a Frencophone fantasy as any other. Just like the political party B.U.B it lacks any credibility, because for such policies there isn't any support in Flanders, as is shown during the last elections, when the B.U.B managed to score in some municipalities the incredible amount of 286 votes (and this was their best result, mostly it was around 50 votes). What means that it's completely unrealistic, because nowhere I find a trace of the way that Flanders is going, now already for years and years. But, if you need this fantasy to be happy, then dream on. :)))

Cheerio

Écrit par : dirk | 28/09/2007

5 decrees in 1999, which I guess were only at the advantages of the North. Isn't it? 1 out of 2 Flemings wants independence. I didn't hear Elio has said that Flanders will be independent in the future. I guess it's an interpretation or a misunderstanding.

Where the separating BHV is is coming from? The European court has said "something is to be done to change the present status". Nothing else.

"Mostly the Flemish movement makes a demand, some years before it is realised. But, in the end, Belgium ALLWAYS gives in", you said. That's the biggest problem. A negotiation is always a matter exchange. That's also democracy.

"When you deliberate try to wipe out a culture that leaves its traces in the people of that culture.", Is your sentence not in contradiction with the previous one?

Yes, our territory has been invaded by a lot of people coming generally from everywhere and it's making our cultural richness. This history has 2000 years, at least.

"Suisse is also a country that works with the principle of territory, so I don't see the problem."

But Suisse is one country and is not at all a confederation any more, as we are still thing it is. A confederation exists nowhere in the world. I have asked to a friend of mine from there to give his opinion.

"Flanders has no desire to Flemishphy any other region than Flanders . We're not as imperialistic as your people."

The problem is that you are not respecting the changes of mind in the population especially around Brussels. People are coming now from other countries. That's why, as capital of Europe, an enlargement is needed like it's the case for other capitals. Three languages are needed. No problem. It's a matter of habit. Used at the same rate in those circumstances.

"The only problem that we have, is that your politicians always veto our politicians, whenever they want to do something"

Don't you thing that there is a "mirror effect"? Don't tell me that you don't understand, please. Veto, we are to afford them all over the world to avoid excesses. China, the US are specialized...

The word "pacific" is apparently not having the same significance. I have no friends from Voeren en Leuven. I have photos only.

"Betrayed by our own bourgeoisie"

The bourgeoisie isn't it no more a part of the population of a country or region? Why they didn't had a chance to take care of their future like other. To be citizen is taking impulsions. You can be against them but not avoid them.

"They revolted for a right to re-attach to France"

Very surprising. To a foreigner language.... UK has denied this right. Ok.

"decided to commit a (failed) cultural genocide"

Ok, this is to be clarified and I will do.

Unionist, I am. That's my right. I'm not alone. Come and see the windows in Brussels.
I take note that Brussels is not important for you.
It's a nice town with many surprises and I love surprises.
Cheers

Écrit par : L'enfoiré | 28/09/2007

Thomas Klau (URL), journaliste stationné à Bruxelles, doit savoir ce qu'il écrit. Strasbourg ne veut pas lâcher le parlement, rappelle-toi de la pétition suédoise qui a circulé et que j'ai refusé de signer avec l'argument des disputes internes à la Belgique et celui que les nouveaux membres de l'UE veulent faire fi de toute tradition, en occurrence Strasbourg, symbole de la pacification germano-française. Thomas Klau écrit que quelques États Membres accepteraient un Bruxelles dépendant directement de l'UE et de ce fait sa capitale, alors que l'écrasante majorité refuserait tout symbole qui ferait ressembler l'UE un peu plus aux États-Unis d'Europe, ce que serait ce Bruxelles DC. La Grande-Bretagne ne voulait pas d'une constitution européenne, elle n'en a pas elle-même. Par chance, les peuples français et néerlandais l'ont refusée et la Grande-Bretagne n'a pas dû se dévoiler. Un transfert à Luxembourg et/ou Strasbourg aurait l'avantage d'économies de voyages prônée par la pétition. Je ne crois pas que Strasbourg soit riche au point de snober, Thomas Klau écrit "convoitises". Luxembourg a le problème de la disparition du secret bancaire, qui est la source de sa richesse, en 2009; on accepterait bien une compensation. Après la réunification de l'Allemagne, le chancelier fédéral Kohl a proposé de transférer toutes les institutions européennes de Bruxelles, Strasbourg et Luxembourg à Bonn, de quoi occuper les immeubles libérés par le transfert de presque toutes les institutions fédérales de Bonn à Berlin, avec l'argument que Bonn désertée serait moins chère et qu'on épargnerait les voyages.

Il n'y pas que la Grande-Bretagne qui est centrifuge en Europe. En fait l'extension en empêche l'approfondissement. L'UE est un club dont on veut retirer quelque chose en donnant le moins possible. Presque tous les États Membres ont des exemptions aux règles communes, y compris la Belgique. On peut dire que la majorité des nouveaux États Membres est loin d'être pro-européenne. Il faut y adhérer pour écouler ses produits et services et puis on reçoit des aides au développement, mais on préfèrerait être le 51e état des USA à qui on offre des bases de stationnement de missiles, ce qui a rendu caduc les traités de désarmement des années 80.

Thomas Klau se trompe quand il voit la scission de la Belgique comme résultat de négociations intra-belges – l'article date du 23/8. Plutôt, la Flandre déclarerait son indépendance. Dans ce cas, Bruxelles-Wallonie pourrait réclamer l'héritage de la Belgique, qui comprend la qualité de membre de l'UE – d'ailleurs ses habitants arborent le drapeau belge –, alors que la Flandre serait un nouvel état devant demander son adhésion – ses bâtiments publics n'arborent déjà plus le drapeau belge. La nouvelle Belgique pourrait utiliser son veto. Si la scission devait être négociée quand même, nos politiciens feraient bien d'associer l'UE aux négociations comme c'est le cas pour le Kosovo pour ne pas avoir de surprise après. Dans les négociations actuelles, il y a évidemment un danger: La Flandre imposerait des transferts de compétences tels que dans quelques années la Wallonie déclarerait ou négocierait son indépendance, voir l'exemple tchécoslovaque. Alors Bruxelles irait avec la Flandre pour garder les institutions européennes.

Écrit par : Walter | 05/12/2007

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